April 20, 2009 8 Comments
Quick note: I wrote the vast majority of this post back in February. Lest you think I’ve been slacking off on the posting, I’ve actually been writing quite a few…they just take a while. So don’t be alarmed by outdated references or anything, I assure you this was all topical when I wrote it.
So this guy posted a letter to the Atheist Experience blog. No one there seemed to think it was worth any time or effort, but it seemed like a blast to me, so I’m tackling it here. Note, though, that I’m not taking this too seriously.
Armageddon Thru To You
Like I said, I thought this was actually fairly clever and funny. It reminded me of the bit from “History of the World Part 1”:
Torquemada – do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada – do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada – do not ask him for mercy. Let’s face it, you can’t Torquemada anything!
If you’ve been wondering why it seems like the world around us is unraveling, it’s because the last days as foretold in the bible are now upon us.
I don’t really think it seems like the world around us is unraveling. Things are moderately crappy, largely due to massive destabilization of the Middle East and eight years of Republican financial policies, but unraveling? I think it was Matt Dillahunty on a recent Atheist Experience or Non-Prophets episode who talked about what a lame, wussy position this is. I mean, look at the generation who grew up in the first half of the 20th Century: they lived through the greatest war the world had ever seen, where chemical warfare was common and the bloodshed was horrendous. They lived through a time of great prosperity and widespread debauchery in the 1920s, where legislated morality led to the rise of organized crime and amoral speakeasies. They lived through times of great disease, where polio and smallpox were widespread even in the richest nations. They lived through a Great Depression, which left the vast majority of people in dire financial straits for years. Then another war broke out, dwarfing the previous one, where six million of God’s chosen people were systematically exterminated, and the atom–the very building block of God’s creation–was rent asunder releasing so much destructive power that it was actually a threat to every living thing in the world. They saw the rise of two global superpowers, opposed to one another, each with the power to destroy the world many times over, one thriving on godless oppression and the other on freedom and (supposedly) Christian values. The generation born in 1900 saw all this unfold in their lifetimes, and you can claim, without any sense of irony, that now the world is unraveling? What temporal hubris, what cultural myopia you must have. You think this is bad, talk to a centenarian. Otherwise, this argument looks precisely as arrogant, self-centered, and blatantly stupid as it is.
Just as it was 2000 years ago, many were unable to discern the signs of Jesus Christ’s first coming (Mat 16:3),
Well, it’s his fault; he should have said something, or at least tapped them on the shoulder.
as will many concerning his second coming, which will occur very soon. Yes many have proclaimed a similar sentiment many times in the past, but their errors have no bearing on today other than to lull you into spiritual apathy, and that too was prophesied to occur in the last days.
Translation: “Sure, everyone who ever said this in the past was wrong, but that doesn’t suggest that we’re wrong this time too. This time,
If you’re not a believer in Jesus Christ because you’re an atheist,
This falls just on the outskirts of “not even wrong.” I mean, I suppose since I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in Jesus Christ as a God figure; belief in him as a historical figure is a separate question and is not necessarily contrary to the definition of atheism. But I think you’ll find that this is backwards; most of the ex-Christian atheists, anyway, have it the other way around: they’re atheists in part because they don’t believe in Jesus Christ. They tested their beliefs and held fast to that which was good, and Jesus didn’t make the cut.
Naturally, being an atheist is a sufficient but not necessary cause for disbelief in Jesus; non-Christian religions share that particular disbelief, and even some Christian sects have beliefs regarding Jesus that could qualify as one or another sort of disbelief (denying his divinity, denying the Trinity, denying that he existed in the real world, and so forth).
consider that the underlying impetus for your disbelief is most likely borne of pride and here’s why:
Pride? I suppose, after a fashion. I’m proud of my ability to use reason to examine the world around me, and it would be a shame to deny those faculties in favor of a comforting delusion.
When we die, if you as an atheist were right, then there is no upside or downside for anyone regarding the afterlife. We will all simply cease to exist
However if we Christians were right about our belief in the afterlife, then we will be given eternal life and you as an atheist will receive eternal damnation
Oh my goodness, you’re right! I’ve never thought of that before! Why, now that you put it that way, in this way that I’ve never heard before in my life, this argument that certainly isn’t old and common enough to have a name, I’m totally convinced. In fact, I’m going to drop down right now and choose to believe in God because otherwise I might face some terrible punishment. Why, that argument is so valid as to be airtight, it doesn’t employ any fallacious false dichotomies, arguments from adverse consequences, or really insultingly stupid theology. Praise Jesus!
Given the choices, the position held by an atheist is a fools bet any way you look at it because the atheist has everything to lose and nothing to gain. It is tantamount to accepting a “heads I win, tails you lose” coin toss proposition from someone.
Yes, I have nothing to gain by not going to church. Except, you know, a life free of unnecessary guilt and anxiety; an additional ten percent of my gross income; sleep time on Sunday mornings; the freedom to associate with whomever I choose; the freedom to make up my own mind on issues in politics, society, and science; meat on Fridays between Mardi Gras and Easter; a worldview that encourages me to focus on matters that affect real people in the real world rather than supernatural matters that affect no one; the knowledge that I should make the most out of every second I have in this life, since once it’s over there’s nothing else; and a mindset free of backward superstitions. Other than that, I’ve got nothing to gain.
And that someone by the way is Satan (see Ephesians 6:12).
Thank goodness he doesn’t exist either.
The only way to explain the attitude held by an atheist is pride, pure and simple.
I have the sneaking suspicion that you haven’t actually considered the other explanations. There are purer and simpler ones, I assure you.
And, of course, there’s no pride involved in presuming to lecture a whole community on their internal motivations for their beliefs, none whatsoever.
The intellectually dishonest and/or tortured reasoning used by atheists to try and disprove the existence of God is nothing more than attempts to posture themselves as superior (a symptom of pride).
As opposed the the intellectually dishonest and tortured reasoning used by Christians to try to prove the existence of God, which is far more than an attempt to posture themselves as superior. Look, if you’re going to do this much projecting, the least you could do is sell popcorn.
And as anyone who has read their bible knows, this is precisely the character flaw that befell Lucifer, God’s formerly most high angel. (Isaiah 14:12-15).
Yeah, Lucifer had the gall to suggest that maybe he could do better than God, who spent the entirety of the Old Testament screwing up and then hitting the global reset button to make up for his mistakes. What a terrible crime. “Hey, I could do that without global genocide. Whoops, guess I’m in Hell now.”
Is it any wonder then why the bible is so replete with references to pride as the cause of mankind’s downfall?
Actually, I’d say curiosity is more often mankind’s downfall in the Bible (Eden, Babel, Lot’s wife etc.), which says an awful lot about the Fundie mindset. Then again, an even more frequent cause of mankind’s downfall is God.
Pride permeates our lives and burdens us in ways that most of us seldom recognize. Ironically, pride is the one thing that can blind someone to things even the unsighted can see.
No, faith can do that too, and more efficiently.
And sadly pride will blind many with an otherwise good heart, to accepting the offer of eternal salvation that Christ bought and paid for with his life.
And pride can likewise blind many to the fallacies on which they base their belief systems, chief among them a sense of personal infallibility regarding interpretations of various holy books and prophetic signs.
In any event, if you’re an atheist, I wish you only the best for every day of the rest of your life because for you, this life is as close to heaven as you’ll ever get,
This is about as close to reasonable as the letter gets. You’re right, this world is the best we can hope for, which means we should do everything we can to make it live up to our hopes. But this is true for everyone, regardless of their beliefs. This world is as close to Heaven as any of us knows we’ll be getting. It is pride of the highest sort to presume that you know who is worthy of Heaven and who is worthy of Hell; your Bible says that only your God can make such judgments. Would you really presume that God agrees with you on the matter of who to save and who to damn? Would you really presume that your understanding of the mind of God is perfect and complete? If so, then I submit that your accusation of pride among atheists is made from a glass house under rocky assault. If not, then shut the hell up, because you’re talking out of your pious ass.
but for believers in Christ, this life is as close to hell as we’ll ever get.
What a deplorable sentiment. Okay, so this world is as close to Hell as you can get. Which makes more sense: waiting it out pouting in the damn corner, or working to make it a better place? The conclusion for atheists and Christians ought to be the same: regardless of what you think lies after, you should be making the most of your time before.
If you’re not a believer and follower of Jesus Christ because you are of another faith, please take the time to very carefully compare your faith to Christianity and ask yourself, why is the bible the only religious book with both hundreds of proven prophecies already fulfilled as well as those being fulfilled today?
If you’re a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, please take the time to very carefully compare your claims to other religions and ask yourself if they aren’t also claiming to have fulfilled and fulfilling prophecy. Then, you might examine whether or not their claims are valid. Then you might examine whether or not your prophetic claims are just as fallacious, vague, self-fulfilling, or interpreted after the fact as theirs are.
No other religion can claim anything remotely close to this fact.
Neither can yours. They all rely on the same silliness as Nostradamus and Astrology. Unless you care to point out specific examples.
Many Christians who are serious students of bible prophecy are already aware of the role and significance of bible prophecy in foretelling end time events.
Yes, and many Trekkies who are serious students of Star Trek continuity are already aware of the role and significance of Star Trek technology in fortelling future technological advancements. What’s your point?
God gave us prophecy as evidence of his divine holiness to know the begining from the end (Isa 46:10). God also believed prophecy to be so important that to those willing to read the most prophetic book in the bible, the Book of Revelation, he promised a special blessing (see Rev 1:3), and this is the only book in the bible that God gives its reader a special blessing for reading. Something to think about.
It’s also the only book in the Bible that reads like “I Am the Walrus.” Something else to think about. Goo goo g’joob.
Also, God didn’t sit down and write the book himself, you know. It’s John (allegedly) who says that the people reading the book will be blessed.
Don’t risk losing Christ’s offer of eternal life by not accepting him as your savior and by thinking that the bible is nothing more than a compilation of unrelated and scattered stories about people who lived 2,000 plus years ago.
But I’ve no reason not to think that the Bible is nothing more than a compilation of loosely related and scattered stories about people who may or may not have lived 2,000-plus years ago.
If you take the time to study (not just read) the bible, you will literally be shocked to learn things you would have never imagined would be revealed in it.
Literally shocked? Like, with electricity? Aside from your misuse of the word “literally,” I agree. I’m often shocked by the things I learn from the Bible, from scientific absurdities to divine atrocities to descriptions of guys with big floppy donkey dicks that ejaculate like firehoses.
Did you know that like parables, God also uses particular months and days in the Jewish calendar, Jewish Feasts and customs, solar and lunar phases, celestial alignments, gematria (Hebrew numerology) early bible events and more as patterns and models to foretell future events?
Wow, a book written by Jews and Jewish offshoot sects employs months and days in the Jewish calendar, Jewish feasts and customs, and Jewish
number magic innumeracy numberwang numerology? I never would have imagined! How surprising! And solar and lunar phases, you say? Why, that makes it totally unique among religions, because no other societies thought that solar and lunar phases were significant!
Consider the following interesting facts about the bible that testify to its God-inspired authorship:
“The dedication page says ‘To Me, who makes all things possible'”?
Did you know that in Gen 12:2, God said he would bless Israel?. How else can you explain the grossly disproportionate level of success achieved by Jewish people as a tiny minority in the world, especially after all they have gone through?
Yes, the grossly disproportionate level of success achieved by this tiny minority, totally ignoring also the disproportionate level of suffering they’ve faced. And totally ignoring how social customs and rules in various time periods have contributed to that success–you know, like how after the terrors of the Holocaust, the Allied nations said “these people need a haven,” carved one out, and then gave them alliance and protection in perpetuity thereafter. Or how religious and legal rules in the Renaissance prohibited Christians from lending money to one another or working as bankers, leaving the job (and thus, the stigma of being greedy) to the Jews. None of those real-world things would account for the “grossly disproportionate level of success” achieved by Jewish people as a tiny minority.
And how can you explain the success achieved by the tiny nation of Israel, surrounded by enemies outnumbering them 100 to 1 and yet still they remain victorious in all their wars?
Outnumbered is not outmatched. The Jews have powerful allies and better weapons than their neighbors. If God were protecting them, I think we’d hear of a lot fewer bombed discotheques.
Did you know that as evidence to indicate that Israel is the epicenter of the world from God’s point of view is the fact that languages to the west of Israel are written and read from left to right as if pointing to Israel, and languages from countries to the east of Israel are written and read from right to left, again as though pointing to Israel. Just a coincidence, you say? I think not.
I think not too. In fact, I think that it’s simply false. First, it ignores the origins of these written languages (i.e., that most European and central/western Asian languages developed out of Proto-Indo-European…in Russia). Second, the Earth is spherical; shouldn’t some of these languages be read top to bottom, or bottom to top, by this logic? Shouldn’t Hebrew be a spiral instead of a right-to-left format? Last I checked, Russia was east of Israel, and yet Russian is read left-to-right. I guess it’s because they’re godless commies, right?
Did you know that the six days of creation and seventh day of rest in Genesis is a model for the six thousand years of this age (ending very soon), that is to be followed by a 1,000 year millennial reign by Christ (see 2 Peter 3:8)? Adam was born sometime prior to 4000 B.C., therefore our 6000 years are almost up.
“Did you know that the Bible supports a chronology that we took from a particular interpretation of the Bible?” Great, now try explaining it in light of the real facts–a 13.7 billion-year-old universe, a 4 billion-year-old planet, a two million-year-old species, and so forth. My guess would be, based on your logic here, that we’ve got a good four million years left in “this age” before a thousand years (or a thousand million years?) of reigning Sons of Men (Hallelujah).
Did you kow that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is hidden in the meaning of the Hebrew names listed in the genealogy of the book of Genesis (Research it online)?
What the hell does this even mean? Is this Bible code “word search” insanity? I guess “cherry picking” and “law of large numbers” really mean nothing to you, then.
To deny this was God-inspired, one has to instead believe that a group of Jewish rabbis conspired to hide the Christian Gospel right inside a genealogy of their venerated Torah, which is not a very plausible explanation.
Nope, it isn’t. Which is why we have a more plausible explanation: you’re seeing patterns where none exist, and cherry-picking evidence to fit your claims. And ignoring the fact that the people who wrote the Gospels knew the Old Testament; if there were a correllation, it would say nothing more than that the Gospel writers wrote Jesus’s message according to the Hebrew genealogy. But I think that’s a less likely explanation than the verbal pareidolia one.
Did you know that solar eclipses, which the bible describes as the sun being black as sackcloth, and lunar eclipses, which the bible refers to as blood red moons, have prophetic meaning? Research it online.
I know people have long interpreted eclipses and comets and other cosmic events to have prophetic meaning. I also know people have long believed that thunder came from angels bowling and that volcanoes erupted in anger at receiving too few virgins. Every time I think we’ve made some serious progress as a species, someone comes up to remind me that we’re only a few short centuries removed from thinking that drilling holes in skulls to release the demons was the cutting edge of medicine and that the Earth might topple over if one of the elephants sneezed. Really? Eclipses are prophetic? So, what about people in the regions where the eclipse doesn’t happen (you know, like over half the planet during every solar eclipse), or is only partial? Does the prophecy not apply to them?
God showed Adam (and us) his plan for man’s redemption through the use of celestial alignments. (research Mazzaroth online)
How does this prove anything about the Bible’s authority or accuracy?
Did you know that much of the symbolism in the book of revelation refers to planetary alignments that will occur when certain events occur as prophesied?
Did you know that much of the symbolism in the Book of Revelation refers to political events happening at the time it was written?
These planetary alignments also explained the birth of Christ, just search out The Bethlehem Star movie on the Internet.
Did you know that the references in Eze 39:4-17 and Rev 19:17-21 in the battle of Gog/Magog and Armageddon respectively, in which birds of prey will eat the flesh of the dead in battle from two enormous wars is based on fact? The largest bird migration in the world consisting of bilions of birds (34 species of raptors and various carrion birds) from several continents converge and fly over Israel every spring and fall. Coincidence? I think not.
I’m not going to check out the facts on the bird migration for this; whether or not it’s true is immaterial. Assuming it does happen, what we have are people who are used to seeing lots of carrion-eating birds writing about lots of carrion-eating birds eating carrion. That’s neither amazing nor prophetic, it’s common fucking sense. If I were writing a prophecy about a large number of dead people, and I wanted to include some graphic details, what am I going to write? Bodies rotting, animals consuming them, maybe survivors working to bury or burn the corpses…you know, the things that happen when lots of people die. It’s not prophetic, it’s realistic.
Did you know that Hebrew numerology, also known as Gematria, and the numbers with biblical and prophetic significance are hidden in the Star of David? Google the video called “Seal of Jesus Christ”
Did you know that numerology is bullshit, and that you can cherry-pick numbers from anything to fit any predetermined conclusion?
Did you know that the seven Churches mentioned at the beginning of the Book of Revelation describe the seven stages the Church will go through?
That’s some literalism there. I can’t imagine it would refer to seven churches or anything. Especially since it says “to the seven churches which are in Asia.” Are those seven stages that the church will go through in Asia? So, what’s the significance of the seven Asian locations listed after the colon after “the seven churches which are in Asia,” namely Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodiciea? I suppose those are all metaphors for the different ages that the church will go through, right?
Did you know that you can interpret any text to mean just about anything? It’s true. Search “literary analysis” online.
Holy shit! I just realized that the Seven Dwarfs are metaphors for the seven ages that the church will go through! I’m pretty sure the current one is Dopey.
There are literally hundreds of hidden messages in the bible like these that testify to the fact that the bible was God inspired, and statistically speaking, are all exponentially beyond the likelihood of any coincidence.
The same can be said for every book of sufficient length. I don’t think you understand the words “statistically,” “exponentially,” “likelihood,” or “coincidence.”
You can find them yourselves if you only take the time to look into it. Remember Proverbs 25:2 “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings”.
What does Proverbs say about finding patterns in a matter where none actually exist, or reading into a matter the conclusion you decided ahead of time?
And finally, if you are Catholic, or one who subscribes to the emergent Church or seeker-friendly Church movement, please compare the doctrine taught, advocated or accepted by your Church, with the actual bible, notwithstanding some new-age version of the bible.
“Please compare that doctrine with my Bible, particularly my metaphorical, prophecy-centric, exclusivist interpretation of the Bible.”
And remember that although the bible is often referred to as the living bible, the word “living” was never intended to imply in any way that the bible “evolves” over time to meet, or be consistent with, the standards of man. It’s just the opposite.
Here Lies Tom’s (newest) Irony Meter
b. January 2009 d. February 2009
Requiescat In Pace
“Poor bastard never saw it coming.”
As long as you’re exhorting people to do their own research, why not do a brief search on “Council of Nicaea.” That’s a pretty decent place to start disproving your baldly false claim here.
Well, am I getting through to you?
Not in the way you’d hoped. Also, the pun was better when you didn’t make it explicit.
If not, the answer might be explained in the response given by Jesus Christ in his Olivet discourse when he was asked by his disciples why he spoke the way he did (in parables, etc.) in the book of Matthew 13:10-16. What Jesus said could have easily been paraphrased more clearly as “so that the damned won’t get it”. Why did Christ respond the way he did when asked why he spoke this way? Is there something about pride (the bible says there is) that closes one’s heart to seeing or hearing the messages supernaturally hidden in bible parables, models, typologies, and similes, etc.? That should give you something to think about, but don’t take too long. Time is now very short.
Yes, it gives me something to think about. And what it makes me think is that Jesus was an elitist bastard, and not nearly the kind of orator that he’s made out to be. “I’m going to be intentionally obtuse so only the people who are bright enough to sort through my bullshit and lucky enough to pull out the right message are able to escape arbitrary eternal damnation. To everyone else: sucks to be you!” Some message of unconditional, universal love there. Looks to me like Heaven is a gated community, and the good ol’ boys in charge of the divine housing association don’t want the “wrong sort of people” to get in.
And yet, the people who are most certain that they’re getting in, the ones who are so sure that they’re smart enough to crack the code of Jesus’s opaque message, are the folks like you, Armageddon, who accuse atheists of being prideful and elitist. But despite their pretenses, they also seem unable to notice the blatant logical fallacies, errors of fact, scientific illiteracy, and profound innumeracy on which their interpretation is based. I guess Jesus’s “right sort of people” doesn’t include particularly rational ones.
If it sometimes seems like there are powers at work behind the powers we know, remember what it says in Ephesians 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” If you study the bible, it will become clearer.
On one hand, I want to bring out 1 Peter 2:13-17 to counter your claim about authorities and rulers. On the other hand, I realize that you’re talking about a supernatural, metaphysical evil, and that the world is somehow tainted by original sin. I suppose if you read the Bible–with a particular sort of bent–that sort of thing might become clearer. It also might not–there are plenty of Bible-believing Christians (probably a large majority, actually) who not only deny your exclusivist gnostic interpretation of the Bible, who not only deny your reading of the book as though it’s nothing more than a newspaper horoscope, who not only deny your mix-and-match ransom letter approach to the text, but who call it out as anti-Christian heresy. I don’t really have a horse in that race, but I can see that they’ve got a point, and even a fool can see how you have to twist, torture, and completely decontextualize most of the book in order to reach the conclusions of Scofield his progeny of Premillennial Dispensationalists. It’s not difficult to see the neo-Gnostic attitude of “I know the real truth, which you can’t know unless I give you the secret True ChristianTM Decoder Ring.” Your “Bible that doesn’t evolve over time to be consistent with the standards of man” explicitly omitted several books that supported that sort of reading, as part of the church declaring that particular attitude a heresy.
But no, I’m sure you’re right. The people who put together the Bible, which you seem to believe is unchanging and perfect, were utterly wrong in describing your sort of interpretation of its teachings as a heresy. I guess God was only inspiring them some of the time.
And by the way, if you are a scoffer, this too was prophesied to occur in the last days. See 2 Peter 3:3.
I love this; I have to remember it when I go to write my books. I’ll just include this in the epigraph: “This is the greatest book ever. This book is so great that people will be in denial about how great it is. After it’s printed, they’ll say that it’s not the greatest book ever, just to mask the fact that they realize it really is the greatest book ever. Just watch, when people say this book isn’t the greatest ever, they’ll just be proving my point that it is.” If I preempt the criticisms of my books and theories and whatnot by acknowledging them and saying they just prove my theories correct, then I insulate myself from any and all criticism ahead of time! It’s a foolproof plan!
Thank you and God Bless you!
Armageddon.thru.to.you (at) gmail.com
You’re welcome, and may the Force be with you!